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	<title>Comments on: The Possibility of the  Extinction of Self-Hatred</title>
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	<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/</link>
	<description>A blog for Mara Collins</description>
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		<title>By: Mara Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-5009</link>
		<dc:creator>Mara Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-5009</guid>
		<description>So, not seeing any of my lovely interlocutors as performers, but rather talking about my own experiences of myself &quot;performing&quot; and how the rehearsal/calculation of effect on others, which seems to take away from truth and authenticity -- it all gets right back to the fraud paradox from &quot;Good Old Neon.&quot; And that&#039;s what&#039;s wrong with self-hatred, the way that from first sting it paralyzes and and wraps you up all Shelob-style and then sucks out all of the vital juices.

Which admittedly doesn&#039;t answer how one does prepare to stand up in front of 38 eager faces ready to lap up all the knowledge one can offer without &#039;rehearsing&#039; and the it just may be that teaching involves a calculation of effect. Only, responsive/listening too. And because most of my more pedagogic experiences in the last five years have been musical, one-on-one, my view are all highly suspect. I like the easy metaphor, you know? 

I carry a story of myself as NOT a good listener, which could use some revision maybe. I watch my kids not apparently absorbing all of the things the violin teacher is trying to impart, not giving all of the lovely social cues of nodding and making eye contact, and still, the stuff he says comes out over the following week. I think sometimes in conversation the jumble of ideas drowns out the other person&#039;s voice, and that&#039;s why I have the replay go for hours, and keep friends who understand when I call back hours later and say, &quot;Wait, I just heard what you said, and what I want to say is...&quot;  Sometimes I wonder if this was a damage inflicted on us all by the Great Books place where you had to listen for that opening where you could jump in...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, not seeing any of my lovely interlocutors as performers, but rather talking about my own experiences of myself &#8220;performing&#8221; and how the rehearsal/calculation of effect on others, which seems to take away from truth and authenticity &#8212; it all gets right back to the fraud paradox from &#8220;Good Old Neon.&#8221; And that&#8217;s what&#8217;s wrong with self-hatred, the way that from first sting it paralyzes and and wraps you up all Shelob-style and then sucks out all of the vital juices.</p>
<p>Which admittedly doesn&#8217;t answer how one does prepare to stand up in front of 38 eager faces ready to lap up all the knowledge one can offer without &#8216;rehearsing&#8217; and the it just may be that teaching involves a calculation of effect. Only, responsive/listening too. And because most of my more pedagogic experiences in the last five years have been musical, one-on-one, my view are all highly suspect. I like the easy metaphor, you know? </p>
<p>I carry a story of myself as NOT a good listener, which could use some revision maybe. I watch my kids not apparently absorbing all of the things the violin teacher is trying to impart, not giving all of the lovely social cues of nodding and making eye contact, and still, the stuff he says comes out over the following week. I think sometimes in conversation the jumble of ideas drowns out the other person&#8217;s voice, and that&#8217;s why I have the replay go for hours, and keep friends who understand when I call back hours later and say, &#8220;Wait, I just heard what you said, and what I want to say is&#8230;&#8221;  Sometimes I wonder if this was a damage inflicted on us all by the Great Books place where you had to listen for that opening where you could jump in&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-5008</link>
		<dc:creator>patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 04:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-5008</guid>
		<description>You know, the more I ruminate on this post the more i wonder, what is wrong with a little good, old fashioned self hatred? Aren&#039;t there things we don&#039;t like in the world? Even Loath? who should our own subconscious be any different? I suspect the way to &quot;extinguishing&quot; self hatred is to be compassionate with ourselves and give it a wide berth when it looms its ugly head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, the more I ruminate on this post the more i wonder, what is wrong with a little good, old fashioned self hatred? Aren&#8217;t there things we don&#8217;t like in the world? Even Loath? who should our own subconscious be any different? I suspect the way to &#8220;extinguishing&#8221; self hatred is to be compassionate with ourselves and give it a wide berth when it looms its ugly head.</p>
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		<title>By: unreliable narrator</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-5006</link>
		<dc:creator>unreliable narrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 01:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-5006</guid>
		<description>PS I&#039;m reminded of the Four Rules of Council, which Roshi made up with some friends of hers for a notorious long-ago California hippie commune of theirs. Anyway, they are:

1. Speaking from the heart (dropping down into feelings, not just rationalizing your argument etc.)
2. Listening from the heart (not planning how you&#039;ll respond/what you&#039;ll contribute)
3. Speaking with concision (coming to essence)
4. Speaking spontaneously—again with the not rehearsing/performing.

(Not a bad explanation at: http://www.talkingleaves.org/node/139)

I&#039;ve done this for hours at Chez Zen, with people with whom I&#039;m arguing, or with the community as a group. Talking piece and everything! Yeah, I know. When you put it with NVC, though, it&#039;s a powerful way to move through conflicts, if the other person knows how to/is willing to play along.

Of course these guidelines are basically impossible, anyway for those of us who premeditate making breakfast in the morning. (Lying in bed cosy and immobile: first I&#039;ll pour a cup of water in the pan. Then I&#039;ll light the fire. Then I&#039;ll get out the cream of rice....etc.) But great anguishing fun to practice!

It really wouldn&#039;t hurt to try some of this during End of the World Class, since I&#039;ve begun feeling that my &quot;listening face&quot; is so fake,—really I&#039;m just waiting for the incoherently burbling student to stop talking so I can hastily reframe what s/he said and then make the point *I* was trying to make all along. Since my point is of course SO much more interesting. SUGH.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS I&#8217;m reminded of the Four Rules of Council, which Roshi made up with some friends of hers for a notorious long-ago California hippie commune of theirs. Anyway, they are:</p>
<p>1. Speaking from the heart (dropping down into feelings, not just rationalizing your argument etc.)<br />
2. Listening from the heart (not planning how you&#8217;ll respond/what you&#8217;ll contribute)<br />
3. Speaking with concision (coming to essence)<br />
4. Speaking spontaneously—again with the not rehearsing/performing.</p>
<p>(Not a bad explanation at: <a href="http://www.talkingleaves.org/node/139" rel="nofollow">http://www.talkingleaves.org/node/139</a>)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve done this for hours at Chez Zen, with people with whom I&#8217;m arguing, or with the community as a group. Talking piece and everything! Yeah, I know. When you put it with NVC, though, it&#8217;s a powerful way to move through conflicts, if the other person knows how to/is willing to play along.</p>
<p>Of course these guidelines are basically impossible, anyway for those of us who premeditate making breakfast in the morning. (Lying in bed cosy and immobile: first I&#8217;ll pour a cup of water in the pan. Then I&#8217;ll light the fire. Then I&#8217;ll get out the cream of rice&#8230;.etc.) But great anguishing fun to practice!</p>
<p>It really wouldn&#8217;t hurt to try some of this during End of the World Class, since I&#8217;ve begun feeling that my &#8220;listening face&#8221; is so fake,—really I&#8217;m just waiting for the incoherently burbling student to stop talking so I can hastily reframe what s/he said and then make the point *I* was trying to make all along. Since my point is of course SO much more interesting. SUGH.</p>
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		<title>By: unreliable narrator</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-5005</link>
		<dc:creator>unreliable narrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 01:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-5005</guid>
		<description>But how does one perform, as sometimes one must (unless one sequesters oneself in the top floor of an Amherst farmhouse)—yet without &lt;i&gt;performing?&lt;/i&gt;

Well hey, I get to practice exactly this every M/W from 3:30-4:45! SIGH. Though I just typed SUGH and that might be more what it sounds/looks like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But how does one perform, as sometimes one must (unless one sequesters oneself in the top floor of an Amherst farmhouse)—yet without <i>performing?</i></p>
<p>Well hey, I get to practice exactly this every M/W from 3:30-4:45! SIGH. Though I just typed SUGH and that might be more what it sounds/looks like.</p>
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		<title>By: jenny</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-4963</link>
		<dc:creator>jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 04:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-4963</guid>
		<description>If I had been born Emily Dickinson I would have hated myself, too. Instead I just strongly STRONGLY disapprove of myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I had been born Emily Dickinson I would have hated myself, too. Instead I just strongly STRONGLY disapprove of myself.</p>
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		<title>By: Mara Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-4958</link>
		<dc:creator>Mara Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-4958</guid>
		<description>Beka -- I think you&#039;re completely right. There&#039;s nothing to make you feel like you&#039;re performing like realizing you are rehearsing. And I am so grateful it&#039;s not just me.

Patrick, something something something thank you (to the tune of The Yellow Rose of Texas, right?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beka &#8212; I think you&#8217;re completely right. There&#8217;s nothing to make you feel like you&#8217;re performing like realizing you are rehearsing. And I am so grateful it&#8217;s not just me.</p>
<p>Patrick, something something something thank you (to the tune of The Yellow Rose of Texas, right?)</p>
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		<title>By: patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-4956</link>
		<dc:creator>patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-4956</guid>
		<description>something something Emily Dickinson something (not sure what I am saying here)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>something something Emily Dickinson something (not sure what I am saying here)</p>
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		<title>By: Beka</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-4953</link>
		<dc:creator>Beka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-4953</guid>
		<description>It is always startling to read someone else&#039;s words and find that they echo your own thoughts so closely.  I could have written this myself--if I had half your talent. ;) What I am practicing in this regard is really, really listening in a conversation without worrying about what I am planning on saying next. When I am consistent about this, it calms many of those fluttery, anxious insects flying about inside me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is always startling to read someone else&#8217;s words and find that they echo your own thoughts so closely.  I could have written this myself&#8211;if I had half your talent. <img src='http://www.oleoptene.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  What I am practicing in this regard is really, really listening in a conversation without worrying about what I am planning on saying next. When I am consistent about this, it calms many of those fluttery, anxious insects flying about inside me.</p>
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		<title>By: Mara Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-4932</link>
		<dc:creator>Mara Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-4932</guid>
		<description>Well you were distinctly abut the practice, which seems to mitigate the finality of the ending?  Is the conquering a dragon thing a problem because it is so bitter when the hydra pops up the charming new heads? Or because it implies  binary states without nuance or degree? 

 I sometimes think of the bell curve and how neither the worst nor the best of what I think of myself tends to be true, but that&#039;s almost worse, my inner drama queen cries, because at least the extremes would be a sort of noticeable mattering. I have from my journals at fifteen some glibness about wanting to be unique, just like everyone else.

I haven&#039;t figured out the performing thing, whether it must necessarily include a distancing. I can think of  teachers I adored but the performance was so ingrained that there was a sort of hearty bluffing thing when you were one-on-one that was grotesque as stage make-up is when you are face to face with the actor. And yet, and yet, and yet. We are performing animals, and I love a performance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well you were distinctly abut the practice, which seems to mitigate the finality of the ending?  Is the conquering a dragon thing a problem because it is so bitter when the hydra pops up the charming new heads? Or because it implies  binary states without nuance or degree? </p>
<p> I sometimes think of the bell curve and how neither the worst nor the best of what I think of myself tends to be true, but that&#8217;s almost worse, my inner drama queen cries, because at least the extremes would be a sort of noticeable mattering. I have from my journals at fifteen some glibness about wanting to be unique, just like everyone else.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t figured out the performing thing, whether it must necessarily include a distancing. I can think of  teachers I adored but the performance was so ingrained that there was a sort of hearty bluffing thing when you were one-on-one that was grotesque as stage make-up is when you are face to face with the actor. And yet, and yet, and yet. We are performing animals, and I love a performance.</p>
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		<title>By: unreliable narrator</title>
		<link>http://www.oleoptene.com/2009/01/21/the-possibility-of-the-extinction-of-self-hatred/comment-page-1/#comment-4928</link>
		<dc:creator>unreliable narrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oleoptene.com/?p=280#comment-4928</guid>
		<description>I am nearly late for class because I keep engrossedly rereading this entry but all I can say for now is that I rethink my phrasing; maybe it should be not &quot;ending&quot; self-hatred or rendering it extinct, as in slaying the dragon, which always gets us Westerners into such big trouble; but finding some cookies for it so that it quits yanking my chain/terrorizing the villagers.

Also I am so worried myself, chronically, about teaching qua performing and the similar dread on waking/doing dishes/pausing, the whole oh-no-why-did-I-say-THAT thing, so much fear that I didn&#039;t listen, wasn&#039;t responsive, was too busy projecting my great funny coolness out into the classroom. UGH. Alors—to school!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am nearly late for class because I keep engrossedly rereading this entry but all I can say for now is that I rethink my phrasing; maybe it should be not &#8220;ending&#8221; self-hatred or rendering it extinct, as in slaying the dragon, which always gets us Westerners into such big trouble; but finding some cookies for it so that it quits yanking my chain/terrorizing the villagers.</p>
<p>Also I am so worried myself, chronically, about teaching qua performing and the similar dread on waking/doing dishes/pausing, the whole oh-no-why-did-I-say-THAT thing, so much fear that I didn&#8217;t listen, wasn&#8217;t responsive, was too busy projecting my great funny coolness out into the classroom. UGH. Alors—to school!</p>
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